Clarity, honesty, and transparency in recruiting and onboarding with Sana Hafeez of Unlearn.ai

Maren Kate
Welcome to Talent and Tech. My name is Maren Kate and today my guest is Sana Hafeez. She's currently the Head of People at Unlearn.ai. Previously, she worked as a people consultant for OneDigital, which is one of the largest HR consulting firms in the US, and has been working with venture-backed technology startups for a decade building people and talent functions from the ground up. Sana, welcome to the show.

Sana Hafeez
Thank you for having me, Maren.

Maren Kate
Absolutely. We're glad to have you. Excited to jump in but just to get started, what was your first job?

Sana Hafeez
Oh, my first job. I actually worked at Kmart as a sales associate right out of high school. So this would have been the summer between high school and college. I can't quite remember why I decided to work at Kmart but what I remember from that experience is I got to meet a lot of people from different walks of life. This was my first job ever really and I think I really enjoyed being helpful. So that's what I remember from that job. I don't even know how many Kmarts are around but this was a Kmart in Michigan.

Maren Kate
I worked at Target one of the summers in university and I remember the same thing. There were some really good things about it. There was also just like, you know, the normal boring kind of 18-year-old work, but it always sticks with you. Whenever I go to Target I'm like, I remember this. And now it's all automated tellers. I used to actually manually check things out.

Sana Hafeez
One thing I will say is I think that everyone should work in retail, at least once. It is a very humbling experience. I really enjoyed this one show. I think it's ended, but it's called Superstore. I don’t know if you remember it. It's so well written and so real and I really enjoyed that show just as an aside.

Maren Kate
Oh, it's so good. I watched the whole thing. Cloud nine - I cried at the end of that show and it's hilarious. I highly recommend it. Yeah, I think retail or the service industry. That's something that I've found over the years when I'm interviewing people that not everybody's going to have that experience but it definitely seems like a bonus if people do because you have to deal with a lot but you also get to see a good slice of different types of life that as a young person you're not necessarily going to see. You’re only going to see what you were raised and grew up around. So what did you end up going to university for and then what was your next job out of school or during school?

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, so I was actually a pre-med major in college. I went to the University of Michigan. I graduated with a degree in cell and molecular biology. I had a minor in my biochemistry and I was fairly certain that I was going to med school. During college, I actually had to work to pay for college. I had student loans too, but I worked in retail, and I was also for about a year an EMT in preparation for medical school. Someone had recommended to me that getting experience in real patient care would be just a good way even for me to determine if I wanted to take that path. So I was an EMT which was very much a turn-off from wanting to do patient care. So I guess it did its job. But during college I also in one of our labs I was also a lab assistant, like, served as a research assistant. So that is two very different sets of experiences there.

Maren Kate
And how did you go from being on that career path to where you are now, to the people world of startups in particular?

Sana Hafeez
Total serendipity. I had moved from Michigan to California and when I arrived in California I was still looking for research jobs so I ended up working at Stanford Stem Cell Institute with a brand new professor who was just setting up his lab. I was there for about two and a half years working on this newer technology at the time called iPS cells, or induced pluripotent stem cells, and while I enjoyed the technology I didn't really enjoy the work. It felt really isolating to me. I'm a quote-unquote people person. I'm quite extroverted. I enjoy meeting different people and I just felt really…I think I was depressed. I was, like, low-key depressed in that role. And a friend of mine at that time was at a startup which I knew nothing about. I didn't know what it meant to be in a startup. And he said we need some help, would you be willing to come on board and help me out? And I was like, sure. My interview was, I think, all of 15 minutes long with the CEO of the company. He was like, so why do you want to work here? And I was like, well, it's something to do and I think I could do a good job. And he was like, okay. And that was it. I credit that friend of mine with my career, really. This was at Tophatter. This was my first startup job if you will. And I was with that company for close to seven years, and really learned everything. I think my foundation was formed at that company. So I ended up at Tophatter. There was lots to do, as there always is at startups, and I was very happy to raise my hand and say, I will do that. So I did everything from building out our customer support function to helping out on the accounting and the finance team to helping to launch new verticals. This was an auction platform so we had different categories where sellers could sell their goods and so there was fashion, there was beauty, there was homewares, home goods, electronics, and so I helped build some of those verticals out. Then, while I was doing all of this, I just naturally gravitated towards the people function. I would see new people start and there was just chaos. It wasn't very organized. So I said, okay, let me get this organized. Then I wanted to get people together so I would organize events. I enjoyed learning about what everybody on the team was doing. So I would just go talk to people and take on different projects. So a lot of my early career was really just about being helpful and contributing where I thought I could contribute. And I credit my manager at the time, who pulled me aside and said, hey, you know, you're really good at this people stuff. Do you want to just do this for a while? And my reaction to that was, well, this is very easy. I don't know. I don't find this very challenging. Little did I know and that is really what I think put me on the path to being in People Operations and being in talent.

Maren Kate
It's interesting how, especially I think with our professional life, I'm sure also with our personal life too actually thinking about it, but how impactful those loose ties are and that random serendipity whereas you've had a friend who had a company that needed some help and that put you on one path. And then your manager suggested the people side and that kind of launched you into what is now your career. I always find it so fascinating. I think specifically within startups and then within people and HR is the roundabout route people take to get there. Like, no one goes to school for this.

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, I actually have met most of the people that I've met in this space on the talent side, and on the people side are people who just really enjoyed other people and have continued to learn in this space because they fundamentally enjoy what they do. I had listened to some of the podcasts before this meeting and I think a lot of your guests had some very interesting routes into talent acquisition and into the people operation space that had nothing to do with what they went to school for or maybe what they were even interested in. And this is something they tried and really enjoyed and excelled at and decided that this is the path that they were going to take.

Maren Kate
Do you think in the next 10 or 20 years we're going to see more structured onramps to people in HR and culture?

Sana Hafeez
That's an interesting question. I do think that organizations are beginning to realize the value of the people function. We saw that at the outset of the pandemic, right, where people teams are the ones that everyone leaned on to figure out how everyone was going to work together productively in a remote setting. And I think we've seen a lot of funny memes but they certainly have some truth to it that the people who have been serving these functions are burned out. They have been carrying the burden of ensuring not just that every individual in the team is productive and healthy but also that organizations are productive and healthy and are providing people with not just the tools but clarity around what it is that the organization does and what people need to do in order to contribute. I'm not sure if there will be structured onramps, but I will say, in terms of like college degrees, some of them do exist at more of a master's level but I am seeing more and more of these boot camps, if you will, that are popping up were for a six month period or four-month period you are really focused on the large themes around people operations and talent acquisition and rewards that you can learn about and then implement immediately in the roles that you are in. So I do think more of that will come up. I also think more communities will pop up around this specific area. So I think what's interesting is in startups, if you are an HR person or a people or a talent individual or you're charged with that function, you tend to be a team of one. You are the one person who is sort of doing everything. The one community that I'm part of that I really enjoy is called Startup Experts and that has been a saving grace because I've been able to go to a group where most of the members are in a similar role and are serving in a similar capacity just to bounce ideas off of. Early in my career, I wish I'd had something like that where I could go and say, Hey, we're thinking about doing X. Has anyone tried it? What have you learned? And kind of crowdsource some of those ideas. I think the most challenging thing early on in my career was not knowing what to try and I think having a community like Startup Experts has been really helpful. So when I am now in charge of people who are just starting out their career in people operations or talent I encourage them to join this community, to have people, to use this as a resource, and also to contribute their knowledge, what they've learned, and share with other people. So I do see communities popping up to support each other and I see some of these concerted bootcamp like programs to help people build a career in these two spaces, talent and people operations.

Maren Kate
I like that a lot. In your role at Unlearn, what would you say, or just in this role in general, what are the biggest challenges you're facing in 2022? What are the things that not necessarily keep you up at night, I never liked that question because I know…

Sana Hafeez
I have two kids. I have two kids, Maren, and that's what keeps me up at night.

Maren Kate
Exactly. Work should never really keep you up at night but what are the biggest things, the biggest challenges, you face right now when it comes to the people side? Whether it's recruiting or HR or culture, what are you see?

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, I think I can just speak to, I mean, I think most of the things that I've seen across the various startups have been very similar. Now, the interesting thing is there's no one answer to the same problem because every company's culture, and all the people who make up the culture of the company, are very different. But I think, in general, recruiting is a big challenge for all startups for a few reasons. One, your value proposition isn't clear so there's a very general proposition, which is, we're a startup. When you come here, you'll get to do all of these different things and that's how you're gonna learn and that's how you're gonna grow. That's a very general startup value proposition. And then another one is, this is the place to be. If you're looking to grow your career, you should be in a startup. That's the one vein I've seen. The other challenge, I think the associated challenge, then is onboarding. Once you've managed to hire really good people, people who are aligned to your culture at the time, then ensuring that they have enough context and they have enough clarity about both their job and the company to be able to focus on the right things.

Maren Kate
I think that it seems, at least in my experience, that onboarding, is under-optimized. So when startups approach recruiting, it's usually not optimized. But onboarding, if you're lucky enough to hire someone who's a great fit for a role at the time like you said, nine times out of ten the onboarding is anything from lackluster to non-existent. It's not that companies aren't trying to solve that. There's a lot of tools out there and everything. I just see that issue and I wonder what the solutions for that are if any?

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, so the thing about onboarding is you could do the bare minimum, which is you provide what I call orientation, which is about where are the systems that we use, here's your computer, here's where you’re gonna sit, here are the things that you need access to. That’s orientation. Just getting you the bare minimum to do your job. Then you could go all the way to the other end of the spectrum where the Facebooks and the Metas and the Googles are now. You have a one-week onboarding orientation where you go through a ton of material. Startups tend to fall somewhere in between. You need some structure to allow people access to the tools that they need and then you need people to understand how their role and their skills and their activities are going to fit in the bigger picture of what it is that the company is trying to do. That I think is the crucial part, but also the hardest part and the reason I think it's hard is because startups are constantly evolving. So what may have been true yesterday is not relevant anymore today. So what may have been relevant yesterday is not relevant today and this is where I think the onus is really on the company. One of the things that we're recently doing at Unlearn is focusing on organizational clarity. So starting with the very high-level question of why do we exist? What is our purpose? And then drilling all the way down to what are our goals? And who's responsible for which pieces of that? There are a bunch of other questions to answer in between but that, I think, is the hard part. It's difficult to take a pause, step back, and answer those questions to ensure that the people who are now the people who are in the organization are clear about that. And then, of course, the people who are coming in as new employees have clarity around that. That is hard to do.

Maren Kate
Yeah, I mean, it's holistic. At the end of the day, it really requires the top-level buy-in, and then it really is holistically, what are we doing, why are we doing it, how does everything tie in? I think that's why hiring or recruiting, even though it's not easy, can be easier because it's kind of a fit scope.

Sana Hafeez
Yeah. Sometimes you're solving the problem in reverse, really, right? Like, you have to get clarity first so then you can go and hire the right people because if you bring in the people, but you don't have clarity, you're going to have to contend with that at some point in time. You're going to have to either ensure that you align people as they come in, or you're going to have to align everybody and realign everybody constantly. Which is a good thing to do anyway because in startups priorities change and ensuring that everyone is on the same page and is rowing in the same direction is important.

Maren Kate
Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of Unlearn, what does your hiring and onboarding process look like? How are you ensuring a good candidate experience?

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, so for me, and this is different than what a lot of other people say, I think a lot of the people talk about tactics but I've been thinking about this more and more and trying to pull up a level and I've really been trying to answer this question for myself is what does it really mean to give a candidate a good experience? Yes, being on time, yes, being responsive, all of those things are important but I think, fundamentally, it's about honesty and transparency. I'll give you an example. We've been looking to hire a talent partner, a technical talent partner, and I've had a couple of conversations with people where it has become very clear that the skill that they're coming in with, and the skill that I'm looking for, right off the bat the minimum requirements that I'm looking for, are completely misaligned. So I actually pause the conversation and I call it out and I say, hey, what I'm hearing is this and what I need, what we're looking for, is this and there seems to be misalignment so I don't think it makes sense to go forward. And most candidates are like, yeah, you're right, I had that feeling too, and thank you for calling it out. And we can wish each other luck and go our separate ways. I'm really liking that approach because I think that is the essence of a good candidate experience. Honesty.

Maren Kate
Respecting people’s time.

Sana Hafeez
Yes. Yes. Why waste someone's time and tell them what the next steps in the process are going to be when I have clearly made the assessment within 15-20 minutes that this person doesn't have the skills today to be right for the role? I was talking to one of the hiring managers at Unlearn and I shared this with him and he was like that just blew my mind. He was like, we can do that? I was like, yes, we can do that. I'm really striving for equipping our hiring managers and our interviewers with both the mindset and the tools so that when they are in this position, they can make this assessment and then deliver that message to the candidate in a very honest, direct, and respectful way. I also solicit that from candidates. What I say on the very first call is if what I'm saying to you is not landing, it's not resonating, if you don't think this is the right place for you, you should tell me, and no hard feelings. You know, you're interviewing us as much as we are interviewing you. So I've really been coming back to this idea of a great candidate experience equals honesty and transparency in both directions.

Maren Kate
I love that because it's so simple. It's not creating some elaborate rubric or hiring plan. It just goes back to, kind of, best communications practices.

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, I think it's being human.

Maren Kate
Yeah, exactly. That's definitely something that can be… What's it called? It can be overlooked in HR when we have to think of like the legal ramifications. I really liked that. What are you seeing trend-wise emerging when it comes to start-up hiring and recruiting? Like, what are you seeing on the candidate side that people are asking for now that maybe they haven't been in the past? What are you seeing on the company side? Where do you think we're going? What do you think's gonna get sunset? What do you this is going to continue to expand from your experience?

Sana Hafeez
Sure. I think one interesting thing that has happened is candidates or job seekers now have a lot more power. Well, I think they always had power but I think now they have realized that they have power. That it is okay for them to say no. It's okay for them to decline a particular offer or a particular job or a particular invitation for an interview even. I didn't see that willingness before. Now, it may also be because, previously, I had mostly been focused on more of the IC and management levels roles and now a lot of the roles that I'm working on are senior to executive level roles. So maybe it comes down to the demographic but I do see people being more discriminating in a positive way in terms of the companies that they will engage with, in terms of the roles that they will pursue. That's one thing I'm seeing. The other thing I'm noticing is that there's a lot of desire on the part of the candidates to want to understand the culture, you know, the collective behaviors of a company, so they can make a determination if this is going to be right for them. It's not just about what benefits do you offer. It's not just about flexibility or can I telecommute from home, but it's really about what you said earlier. It's more of a holistic assessment of, okay, are you a company, are you a group of people, and do you exhibit the behaviors that I would want in my teammates, and would I want to be part of this endeavor as your teammate? I'm seeing more questions, more targeted questions, about that when I speak with candidates.

Maren Kate
And on the employer side, I mean, one thing I've noticed, I'm curious if you've seen this as well, is that I think candidates are also because of that they're expecting more upfront from employers. Even for early-stage startups, I’ll always suggest creating an About Us page. Have a hiring page. Set up the basics, the foundation, because people expect it now. You need to kind of justify the basics and the more you can spell out early on, the better it will help people that are fits opt-in and people that are like this isn't the culture I'm looking for kind of opt-out.

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I do think that and I think it's because there is such a cost to having a mismatch in either direction, right? If you are someone coming into a company whose culture you didn't do a very good job of assessing during the interview process, now you're gonna have to leave and start your search again. If you're a company who hired someone, and you didn't do a very good job of assessing if this individual would be successful in the environment that you have created, well, you're going to have to now go out there and have to hire for that role again. So I think that both companies and individuals realize that proper cultural behavioral alignment is really important so let's openly talk about that right at the outset. And candidates are hungry for this information from companies. And companies are putting more and more effort into identifying the right people with the right sets of behavior for their organization.

Maren Kate
Yeah, I agree. It's just what needs to happen in the market, period. There'll be a lot less wasted time on both sides.

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, definitely.

Maren Kate
So my last question before I jump into just a few rapid-fire fun ones, especially with all the changes that we've seen in the last few years ever since COVID but even now in the summer of 2022, what advice would you give to job seekers right now? And maybe especially job seekers within the startup community.

Sana Hafeez
That's a tough one because I find that general advice serves nobody. So maybe what I'll do is I'll come at this question from a slightly different perspective. Maybe I'll just say, here are the things that I've reflected on. So if I was someone looking for a role in this environment, here are some of the things that I have considered, and we've kind of largely touched on those but, first and foremost, figure out early on if this is the type of company that you want to be a part of. What are their operating principles? How do they work together? How do they make decisions? Try to dive deep into those things because that philosophical alignment is much more important and is going to make or break the role that you're going to eventually step into. So that's one. I think the other thing I would say is you have to take ownership of your own development. I think this is a mistake that I've made early on in my career is I was always looking for, oh, I want to work for this person because they've been in this space for so long and they can teach me, whereas, I found that where I have learned the most and environments where I have excelled are really environments where I was encouraged to own my development, whether that was simply coming up with saying, here are three conferences I want to attend, or here are three classes that I want to take, or here are some projects that are very interesting to me that I think I can do a good job on, and stretching myself rather than asking a manager, or a boss, or a peer to stretch me. I would say, own your development. I think that's really important. And finally, and this may be controversial, but, finally, compensation isn't everything. It really depends on where you are in your career. So I will say that has a hint of privilege to it because early on those things are important, especially if you're living in a place like San Francisco, compensation does matter but for what it's worth, the real value of a role is in the alignment that you feel with the organization, in the alignment that you feel with the culture, in the alignment that you feel with your team. That is, I think, the magic formula and that is what's going to make or break your career long-term.

Maren Kate
I love that and I think you're completely right. Generic advice usually is pretty garbage. I like the way you're outlining it more from a first principles standpoint. Regardless what the situation, these are the building blocks of how to think about something versus what to do.

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, and like you said general advice is not going to fit everyone. This is just one person's perspective but if this helps people think differently about their careers and as they're entering the job market I think that's good enough.

Maren Kate
I like that. Okay, so final questions, what product or tool do you rely on to do your best work?

Sana Hafeez
That's easy. There's this tool that I use called Sunsama. S-U-N like sun sama S-A-M as in Mary A and what I like about it is, one, I don't think they sell broadly so they do have a very small sort of niche customer base but I'm a big fan of writing on paper, and making lists and Sunsama just allows me to do that in a very clean digital format. So things that are prioritized are really top. I can arrange them in a way so it looks like a handwritten list. I love that. So it really allows me to stay clear on my priorities. I started using this tool when I became a consultant a few years ago and I have been using it since.

Maren Kate
That’s awesome. I'm going to check that out. I am a big notebook person too. I literally have one right next to me. And I move a lot of my notebooks up into Notion. But that's very cool, Sunsama. And then what is your favorite podcast or book from the last, I would say, year?

Sana Hafeez
Just one? Can I give you more than one?

Maren Kate
You can absolutely give me more than one and it can be across any genre.

Sana Hafeez
Yeah, I have been really enjoying reading Barack Obama's latest book A Promised Land. I really find his writing joyful. Though I tried to read a few pages every day. And then I got a couple of books when I joined Unlearn, which I've really enjoyed. I'm not fully through them but What You Do Is Who You Are by Ben Horowitz is one of them and Creativity, Inc, which is about Pixar that I've really enjoyed. For someone who is trying to be better at more productive conflict, there's a book by Liane Davey called The Good Fight. Has nothing to do with the show but The Good Fight is really great because not only does it tell you how to have a productive conflict but it gives you really specific actionable things on how to get better at it.

Maren Kate
Interesting. Okay, that's great. I love that. And I agree that Creativity, Inc. and the one by Ben Horowitz are both excellent reads. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Thank you for your great insights. How can people find more about you and Unlearn.ai online? Besides the URL I just gave.

Sana Hafeez
Sure. Well, thank you very much for having me. It was great to explore with you. Yes, Unlearn has a website. You can check us out on LinkedIn as well. And then if you're looking for me, you could just search for my name, but my LinkedIn handle is S as in Sam, X as an x-ray, and then my last name Hafeez.

Maren Kate
Perfect and we will leave all of that in our show notes too. Thank you so much.

Sana Hafeez
Thanks, Maren. It was great to talk to you.